tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post718163203680203444..comments2024-03-07T20:15:45.996-08:00Comments on The Bitter Script Reader: The ethics of script sharingThe Bitter Script Readerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16575166527272639709noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-75727460963708739572013-01-15T09:32:53.137-08:002013-01-15T09:32:53.137-08:00Bloody KNEW he was a script reader. I truthfully j...Bloody KNEW he was a script reader. I truthfully just didn't want to waste time looking it up. Thanks for the fact check.<br /><br />I hadn't thought about this thread in a few days and returned to see this - it's good to know that I'm not completely off base in this ethical debate. <br /><br />Thanks for the encouragement to keep on reading and writing. Thanks for an inside, alternate perspective. Really appreciate it - I just thought that since this was an article trending on twitter it would be best to actually give people real perspective on the matter.<br /><br />Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-6986519496771541642013-01-14T08:28:45.434-08:002013-01-14T08:28:45.434-08:00Yahbut, even Amateur Fridays have an ethical worm ...Yahbut, even Amateur Fridays have an ethical worm to go with the apple. At least, they have since Noscrac jacked his coverage rates up to $800-$1500 a pop. The implication is that if you pays up the top bill, you gets moved to the head of the Amateur Friday line.<br /><br />Which is precisely why I dropped out of ScriptShadows and have posted, at length, on DoneDeal (as "M.O. Schrenck") about the glib internet script vampire "Carson Reeves."Jack Dawehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06284738545713910943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-28882075456725670112013-01-13T17:12:05.517-08:002013-01-13T17:12:05.517-08:00Jim, you're getting lied to here more than a c...<br />Jim, you're getting lied to here more than a cop at a pot convention.<br /><br />Michael Arndt was a script reader for HBO Films for years -- everybody knows that -- he found "A Simple Plan."<br /><br />Don't be so fast to apologize, Jim, especially around these BS artists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-32274847158482958462013-01-13T16:56:55.438-08:002013-01-13T16:56:55.438-08:00Hey, Jim Parsons,
You're not mistaken; Emily ...Hey, Jim Parsons,<br /><br />You're not mistaken; Emily Blake loves to revel in the fact she's "broken in" and rubs it in the faces of those who haven't every chance she gets. (QUOTE: "I am in that position - I have worked my way up and made enough contacts and earned enough trust that I can get scripts I need.")<br /><br />She has a total us vs. them attitude, but she's also incredibly passive aggressive so the denial is part of her approach. What else is she being but SNARKY when she hopes you'll one day have an "informed position" about the issues. Puh-leeze.<br /><br />Funny thing is, you should read her stuff, as I'm in a position to do -- averagely written action clichés. And keep in mind she's sold NOTHING.<br /><br />But enough about the small fry, on to the larger issues.<br /><br />Yes, Jim, you're right, it's all total hypocrisy -- everyone in town has access to most scripts and believe me, there's lots of "reviewing" going on in the form of "I read Writer X's script; it's terrible." At least the blog guys give reasons!<br /><br />So don't believe all the BS from people like Bitter; it's not guys on blogs that wreck writers' careers, it's too many people on the inside not liking the work and that getting repeated around town.<br /><br />Keep writing and keep studying scripts, Jim.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-77590974089144067702013-01-12T08:28:15.381-08:002013-01-12T08:28:15.381-08:00I had heard it was $1000, perhaps he's upped i...I had heard it was $1000, perhaps he's upped it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-20538597022763636072013-01-12T00:48:59.872-08:002013-01-12T00:48:59.872-08:00"his $1,500 script management program where h..."his $1,500 script management program where he pretends to read your script, but really pawns it off to one of his underlings."<br /><br />Whoa! Come again?<br /><br />I know he's got other readers that you can specifically request. Are you saying even submissions to Carson get done by other readers?The Bitter Script Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16575166527272639709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-42818072704747546592013-01-11T23:15:32.204-08:002013-01-11T23:15:32.204-08:00Around the time this article was published, Carson...Around the time this article was published, Carson decided to take the Scriptshadow site into another direction, with less reviews of active pro scripts under development and more amateur reviews to pump up his $1,500 script management program where he pretends to read your script, but really pawns it off to one of his underlings.<br /><br />Carson finally realized that pretending to be a Hollywood agent/manager/whatever is more profitable than pissing off practically all of Hollywood.<br /><br />Neilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16058601442026855932noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-7629747051988553792013-01-11T19:26:33.285-08:002013-01-11T19:26:33.285-08:00LOUD NOISES!
In all seriousness though, excellent...LOUD NOISES!<br /><br />In all seriousness though, excellent comments on a subject with one hell of a slippery slope. <br /><br />I suppose it comes down to that golden rule. Do unto others...<br /><br />Writing and reading is an interpretive process. The words may be the exact same for one hundred readers, but those one hundred are going to have a slightly different reaction. We fill the space with our own issues and imagination, and for any of us to act as though our perception is judge, jury and executioner is beyond bullshit when it comes to harming the potential for a writer's work. That's why I appreciate the BL's "do no harm" policy. <br /><br />If you must review a script and post it on the internet, do so after the movie has been released as a compare/contrast piece. Otherwise, if you're using the script as instruction, keep it to your damn self and work harder. As some have noted, even when a reviewer believes they are helping said writer by blowing sunshine up the script's ass and shooting off emails to connected friends, the collateral damage can be significant. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17020877365675094496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-68521456066392632892013-01-11T10:20:02.088-08:002013-01-11T10:20:02.088-08:00This is very different from script sharing - a com...This is very different from script sharing - a completely different topic. What you're talking about is the review of a writer's work for personal profit. Sites which do this to gain page hits from viewers and earn revenue from advertising (ain't it cool news, Scriptshadow, etc.) are a very different matter from people getting new scripts to read and learn from. VERY different scenario.Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-82521982298917635272013-01-11T01:08:31.305-08:002013-01-11T01:08:31.305-08:00I don't think any writers NEED to read the hot...I don't think any writers NEED to read the hottest unproduced specs. But I do think that writers need to read some unproduced scripts. Reading a script when you already know who will star, you've already scene the trailer, you've already read reviews, is a very different experience than going in cold. I know it has benefited me tremendously from reading screenplays where I had no knowledge of the final product.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-66613850065123998532013-01-10T23:53:26.686-08:002013-01-10T23:53:26.686-08:00Problem with this mentality is that once you ship ...Problem with this mentality is that once you ship out a script, doesn't matter if it's hot at that moment. But when it gets picked up, people will start FRANTICALLY looking for it.<br /><br />Then when the few people who get their hands on it and read it...guess what? THEY START POSTING EXCERPTS OF IT ON THEIR BLOGS!! Completely spoiling the potential future movie, laid out the plot details (possibly important ones) out for MANY more people to read. People who prefer to read top lists than news articles (which is a higher number, might I add).<br /><br />That's exactly what happened to the Michael Bat TMNT script. I didn't even read it yet when it leaked but I saw articles popping out blaring out the choices it made, in the form of a top list no less. I even read a couple, where they post the lines and scrutinized the writer's choices. Not knowing if that writer was forced to make those choices due to terrible notes and probably had a better script in mind.<br /><br />Now if that writer gets a new assignment, possibly a dream assignment they are allowed some free reign on, people will point out and say "HEY LOOK! It's made by the guy who almost ruined TMNT! Don't see that film!"<br /><br />It'd also be like leaking the script to the Sixth Sense while it was in production and people started posting the ending EVERYWHERE on the internet. Who in turn would tell their friends and family in real life. I doubt the movie would've been as big as it ended up being if that happened. Part of the reason was how surprising the twist was, not alot of people saw it coming (though Shyamalan's credibility has been ruined since).<br /><br />If it starts to get this bad by the time I start shipping my material out, i'm investing in a typewriter and only giving xeroxed copies with unique watermarked identifiers so I can know who the culprit was!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-55434771763259374332013-01-10T15:37:01.681-08:002013-01-10T15:37:01.681-08:00Then let me start with this: if it wasn't inte...Then let me start with this: if it wasn't intentionally condescending, then I apologize. This entire thread has been operating on an ethical scale in terms of industry placement in regards to the issue. The higher you get the more contradictory it seems.<br /><br />One doesn't need to have their work traded to have an informed opinion - just as one wouldn't need to go to war to have an opinion on it. All you need are facts. At the end of the day, we are writers. When we send our work into the world, we let it go - knowing that we have no more control over who sees it. I write from the understanding that this is inevitable now. It is a way of life. My opinion is very well informed and if you read the parts of my response that are less catty - you'll see that I do, in fact, have a very valid point about the ethics of this situation. And it is dealt with in absolutes. There's no moral gray here.Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-17710732105726949922013-01-10T15:23:18.403-08:002013-01-10T15:23:18.403-08:00Condescending capitalization? What on Earth are yo...Condescending capitalization? What on Earth are you talking about? Now I know you're reading into things.<br /><br />I didn't read most of the comments before posting my original response. I was simply addressing this idea I've heard over and over that amateur writers NEED to read unproduced specs. That's the reason a lot of people give as why they should be able to trade freely, why it's unfair that they can't. But very few people actually need to trade. I've been writing a long time, and this week was the first time I really needed to read a specific spec.<br /><br />So, you don't think your opinion would be more informed if you were in a position to have your work traded? Okay.<br /><br />It's weird. I've never made a feature film. It would never occur to me to tell someone who has how they should feel about people bootlegging their movie.<br /><br />This reminds me of when I used to be a teacher and people who'd never taught a class in their lives told me all about how to do my job.<br /><br />It's exhausting.Emily Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02163221455899041141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-46726139446419925492013-01-10T15:15:37.248-08:002013-01-10T15:15:37.248-08:00Nope, read the comment exactly as you presented it...Nope, read the comment exactly as you presented it - condescending capitalization and all. But thanks for the passive aggressive well wishes and nice little jab at how "informed my opinion is." I'll take it to bank for what little it's worth. Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-62618341740580109312013-01-10T15:04:20.409-08:002013-01-10T15:04:20.409-08:00For the record, the people I know who would send m...For the record, the people I know who would send me scripts if I asked for them - they're all people I've met online.<br /><br />The Internet has provided all the burger flippers in Iowa the opportunity to make connections without ever having to set foot in Los Angeles.<br /><br />Sounds to me like you read what you want to read in the comments. But good luck with your scripts. Hopefully soon you will have an informed opinion about this, because your work will be traded around. Good luck!Emily Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02163221455899041141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-41890349205880257712013-01-10T14:53:47.804-08:002013-01-10T14:53:47.804-08:00Emily,
This is not a SS vs. August debate - I am ...Emily,<br /><br />This is not a SS vs. August debate - I am firmly planted in the anti-SS camp and have been staunchly against his reviewing practices. But regardless as to whether your post is just a response to the BSR article or one of the comments I - or anyone else here - posted, it was a disgustingly condescending read and illustrates the very US vs. Them mentality you claim doesn't exist. Your argument is "I earned the right and made the connections" so everyone else should do the same - without acknowledging that the person in middle america flipping burgers during the day and writing at night does not have the means to make those very connections. Great job with that post, you're definitely going to win their votes. But your example also brings up a great reason why Amateurs need sites like the tracking site BSR mentioned - which I am fully aware you are a member of. And as I mentioned above, that site is not public - just more accessible to aspiring writers.<br /><br />There is no question in my mind that writers benefit from reading good writing. But times change and what sells changes with it. By reading, writers get a better sense of what they're looking for and can adjust their scripts to be more or less like something in the market to improve their chances of a sale or getting representation. But congratulations on pursuing your dream in LA and making the connections necessary to facilitate those private trades - writers on the other side of the continent or across the globe who don't have those connections there need a way to put a finger on the pulse of the Industry if they're to have a shot at breaking in.<br /><br />No one should be arguing that the reviewing of unproduced screenplays won't have a detrimental effect on writer's. That's not what the key issue here is. The point is dissemination of the material. At the end of the day, everyone's going to have their preferences on where they get their materials but let me make this crystal clear: BSR is advocating private dissemination of material - clearly it works and gets the ball rolling for great specs - but at the same time he's arguing that the distribution of those scripts to people with an interest in reading and learning is just as bad as what Scriptshadow does. At the end of the day, both practices violate the standard that "you should not be distributing copyrighted materials without the author's permission." So no, it's not a right - it's the risk you take when you submit your material out into the world. In this case, it's the need to acknowledge that they aren't as different as BSR would lead his readers to believe: either all sharing of an author's work is wrong - public and private - or you it's alright; provided you're not the kind of person who takes the material and then reviews it for page hits and to build a reputation for yourself in order to garner followers and sell a notes service. That's profiting off of the blood, sweat and tears of others and I don't approve of that. But when my material gets submitted, when it inevitably ends up on tracking sites and others ask for reads - I don't begrudge anyone the chance to read it and learn from my mistakes as that's the age we live in.Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-70274197458874539352013-01-10T14:48:45.074-08:002013-01-10T14:48:45.074-08:00Excellent point. I can only imagine the sorts of ...Excellent point. I can only imagine the sorts of things you'd like to shout at both sides of this debate, were you not essentially prohibited from doing so under the settlement.<br /><br />Listen to this woman, folks. She spent a year of her life caught up in this kind of litigation.The Bitter Script Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16575166527272639709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-58113516601769296032013-01-10T14:45:21.603-08:002013-01-10T14:45:21.603-08:00Trust me, once you are sued for $15 million dollar...Trust me, once you are sued for $15 million dollars, you have a whole different viewpoint on script sharing. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-82360294865276035692013-01-10T14:33:51.151-08:002013-01-10T14:33:51.151-08:00You make an interesting point.
I'm not argui...You make an interesting point. <br /><br />I'm not arguing against your overall point or anything like that. I just want to I try to give you my perspective. Please bear with me. <br /><br />I've written a dozen or so scripts but I'm not someone that is entitled yet. I am someone that likes to read scripts, both good and bad, so I can get better at writing them myself. <br /><br />I've only read one script that was "in development". It was sent to me in an email a couple years ago by someone I submitted a script to. I assume on accident. <br /><br />It was on the Black List. I wanted to know what a good script looked like. There was no "need", but there was also no evil intent. <br /><br />I had read plenty of scripts from other non-pro writers that no one was interested in. I'd also read hundreds of scripts that were released AFTER they'd been made into movies. But I'd never read a script that people at that exact moment were really interested in making.<br /><br />Here's why I bring this up - A year later I saw the movie once it came out. It was DRASTICALLY different than the script I read. As a person aspiring to get paid to write screenplays, I consider this one of the most important things I've learned in my continuing education. <br /><br />You hear stories about rewrites, last minute changes etc but actually seeing how the script changed from when it was hot to when it was on the screen was eye opening for me. I think most non-pro writers could really benefit from seeing this type of thing as well. <br /><br />Anyway, thanks for sharing your point of view. <br /><br />Increasingly,<br />H hrawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03533990856880261434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-55906191668641325862013-01-10T13:09:19.812-08:002013-01-10T13:09:19.812-08:00I recently turned in a spec to Manager, and his re...I recently turned in a spec to Manager, and his response was "Hey this is really great, but it's too similar to Spec That Just Sold For Lots Of Money."<br /><br />He wanted me to rewrite it, taking out the elements that made it similar to the other project. In order to do that, I had to read the Spec That Just Sold For Lots Of Money to know exactly where our stories overlapped.<br /><br />Turns out, Manager's totally right and there are too many similarities. Now that I've read Spec That Just Sold For Lots Of Money, I know how to adjust my story to make sure it doesn't remind everyone of that script.<br /><br />At this point, the point at which I actually NEED to read an unproduced spec, there are three or four colleagues in addition to Manager who could all get it for me. I am in that position - I have worked my way up and made enough contacts and earned enough trust that I can get scripts I need.<br /><br />But this is the first time ever that I can honestly say I needed to read an unproduced spec. I've been writing a long time, reading a lot of scripts, but really, before now, I never NEEDED to read a specific script. And now, when I do need it, I can get it through private sources.<br /><br />People who can't get the script from private sources don't need them. You WANT them, but you don't NEED them. You can write just fine by reading what's available to you already. There are great scripts available through Amazon. Need a spec, not a shooting script? John August and Terry Rossio post some on their sites. Make some friends, and maybe other writers will send you theirs. If you want to know what's selling - check the trades. You don't need to read the scripts to know what kind of projects are making money.<br /><br />It's not about US vs THEM. It's funny to me how people love to rag on John August for his ire toward Scriptshadow, but August hosts a podcast that helps writers enormously, he blogs advice, he posts his own material for people to use as examples. He practically invented helping new writers. He just doesn't want people outside the system passing around his material, and he ESPECIALLY doesn't want them reviewing it. He has that right.<br /><br />You will want that right too, when it's your turn.Emily Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02163221455899041141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-8556676600674665982013-01-10T12:59:40.878-08:002013-01-10T12:59:40.878-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Emily Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02163221455899041141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-21874919218423156832013-01-10T12:08:52.108-08:002013-01-10T12:08:52.108-08:00"It's only OK if you can give the project..."It's only OK if you can give the project traction."<br /><br />So where does that line get drawn? The arguments on both sides illustrates how slippery this slope is. BSR says it's OK for him, but not for someone not "involved" in the industry. <br /><br />Hypothetically, let's say I can get scripts into the hands of a high ranking studio exec - someone way beyond BSR's network and pay grade - but I don't work in town. I'm just an aspiring writer in North Dakota and just happen to have a network of friends that are in the industry. Is it OK for me to read the latest hot scripts? <br /><br />Change the hypothetical where my friend is just a reader. Or is the wife of a reader. I can still get a script some traction - just not as much as my first scenario. <br /><br />What exactly does tacit approval hing upon when it comes to reading these scripts? Unfortunately, I just don't see how there can be any bright line test. Because, if a studio doesn't care about BSR and his pals sharing scripts, then, legally speaking, they really can't complain about the scripts being shared (not reviewed) between those that are card carrying members of the Scriptshadow nation.<br /><br />Ultimately, this has really all boiled down to semantics. What should really matter is writing - if you're serious about the craft - just get to it - right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-27660346481897429742013-01-10T11:19:44.370-08:002013-01-10T11:19:44.370-08:00Those are some good points. If I'm incorrect a...Those are some good points. If I'm incorrect about the Micheal Ardnt point then I concede it - I'd read an article which stated he was a reader before he was an assistant (which makes sense as that is part of the job for some assistants who are just starting out).<br /><br />But you're presuming that he had no access to scripts and speaking for him (which, admittedly, I did as well) - truth is we can't speak for him or his process. <br /><br />And those scripts being "given away" are actually being posted for awards consideration - but it's after the film has sold and been made. You want to know what's selling, what genre, what skill level you need to be able to produce work on - you get that from reading the latest scripts. Not everyone will do it - a key point - but quite a few of the people I know do exactly that and have become better writers for it. And to suggest that there isn't an advantage is foolish.<br /><br />But none of this changes the fact that the distinction BSR is making his argument is fundamentally difficult to swall because - simply put - it's only OK if you can give the project traction. Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-10138276785289764692013-01-10T11:00:15.324-08:002013-01-10T11:00:15.324-08:00Dave's making some really good points here. I...Dave's making some really good points here. I'll add the caveat that the ONE thing to be wary of with older scripts is the occasional formatting difference. These days, there are so many current scripts available, I doubt anyone will be misled if they happen across a screenplay from 1940.<br /><br />I think chasing the latest trend is a bad idea. First, you don't need to read the scripts to know that, say, zombie specs are hot at a given moment. You just need to read the sales. Second, if you chase the trend after the sale happens, you're going to be way behind the curve once you finish your spec and are trying to get it into the hands of someone who can do something with it.<br /><br />Just ask most of the people who finished a zombie spec in the last two years.<br /><br />Don't chase the market - go your own way and hope it comes to you. When you're inside the gates, sure, pursue the hot assignments. But when you're writing on spec, worry less about what the last guy did to break in. The Bitter Script Readerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16575166527272639709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4706282221761427996.post-61255211587473312932013-01-10T10:58:58.151-08:002013-01-10T10:58:58.151-08:00Ok, so I read the post - it's a great success ...Ok, so I read the post - it's a great success story and I hope many amateurs get to experience it but you're still on shaky ground with your argument. Just because in-industry dissemination helped build buzz and got it on the BL does not change the fact that the people involved are still distributing a copyright holder's work without express permission. You can't argue that one is better than the other without acknowledging that they are one in the same. The site that you've referred to throughout charges a fee to maintain it's operations as website hosting and job/news posting requires a staff. That fee basically ensures that it is a private community. <br /><br />At the end of the day, writers have to simply accept that their work is going to be read by people that they never gave permission to. But if those readers aren't posting malicious reviews on the internet and are simply trying to enjoy the story - learn what works and what doesn't, how can it be any less wrong than industry players passing around a script to facilitate a sale? Because your argument is assuming malicious intent.Jim Parsonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07971284950853211441noreply@blogger.com